Help talk:FAQ - Revision history

Taras: Taras moved page Talk:FAQ to Help talk:FAQ: Help: namespace repurposed for guides/tutorials etc.

2015-07-19T16:30:10Z

Taras moved page Talk:FAQ to Help talk:FAQ: Help: namespace repurposed for guides/tutorials etc.

← Older revision	Revision as of 16:30, 19 July 2015
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Silverdr at 00:32, 2 November 2014

2014-11-02T00:32:06Z

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	* Both of those are true; ie, when/if bitcoins are lost because of address reuse, it is the fault of whoever decided to reuse the address, and not a bug nor the fault of the other party. --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 01:56, 31 October 2014 (UTC)		* Both of those are true; ie, when/if bitcoins are lost because of address reuse, it is the fault of whoever decided to reuse the address, and not a bug nor the fault of the other party. --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 01:56, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

			Unfortunately none of those became true because you said or wrote so. To make them true, please provide solid evidence. If you can't - remove them yourself of let others remove them. You can always present them as your personal opinions on your blog/site though.[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 00:32, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Luke-jr: /* Why does my Bitcoin address keep changing? */ Rephrase slightly

2014-10-31T01:56:41Z

Why does my Bitcoin address keep changing?: Rephrase slightly

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	[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 01:37, 31 October 2014 (UTC)		[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 01:37, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

	* Both of those are true; ie, when/if ~~you lose~~ bitcoins because ~~you reused an~~ address, it is ~~''your''~~ fault and not a bug. --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 01:54, 31 October 2014 (UTC)		* Both of those are true; ie, when/if bitcoins are lost because of address reuse, it is the fault of whoever decided to reuse the address, and not a bug nor the fault of the other party. --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 01:56, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Luke-jr: /* Why does my Bitcoin address keep changing? */

2014-10-31T01:54:21Z

Why does my Bitcoin address keep changing?

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	plus a few more that could use less offensive and more informative language plus proper references. You can't give any backup to those claims and yet when other people try to improve this to be more accurate and factual rather than "wishful" or propaganda style, you bring back the claims which you can't support with evidence. Please prove me wrong and I will eat my greens all the way down. But if you can't, then please stop wasting/destroying other people's work because - I don't know - maybe you believe that you have a mission to save the world and you know how to steer people to do what you want them to do with false or at least not fully correct information on this wiki. I don't understand this approach of yours but I still kindly ask you to reconsider your practices and keep (or at least allow others to keep) the information quality standards that Bitcoin IMHO clearly deserves.		plus a few more that could use less offensive and more informative language plus proper references. You can't give any backup to those claims and yet when other people try to improve this to be more accurate and factual rather than "wishful" or propaganda style, you bring back the claims which you can't support with evidence. Please prove me wrong and I will eat my greens all the way down. But if you can't, then please stop wasting/destroying other people's work because - I don't know - maybe you believe that you have a mission to save the world and you know how to steer people to do what you want them to do with false or at least not fully correct information on this wiki. I don't understand this approach of yours but I still kindly ask you to reconsider your practices and keep (or at least allow others to keep) the information quality standards that Bitcoin IMHO clearly deserves.
	[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 01:37, 31 October 2014 (UTC)		[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 01:37, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

			* Both of those are true; ie, when/if you lose bitcoins because you reused an address, it is ''your'' fault and not a bug. --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 01:54, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Silverdr at 01:37, 31 October 2014

2014-10-31T01:37:02Z

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	* There are no false statements. You may not remove the true ones simply because you wish they were not true. --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 01:09, 31 October 2014 (UTC)		* There are no false statements. You may not remove the true ones simply because you wish they were not true. --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 01:09, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

			Luke-jr. I really don't understand why you are doing this. I didn't and don't want to remove the true ones. I only removed the untrue and you immediately reverted the changes. There is a number of statements, which are not true:

			- "the addresses are designed to be single-use only"
			- "address reuse works by accident"
			- ...

			plus a few more that could use less offensive and more informative language plus proper references. You can't give any backup to those claims and yet when other people try to improve this to be more accurate and factual rather than "wishful" or propaganda style, you bring back the claims which you can't support with evidence. Please prove me wrong and I will eat my greens all the way down. But if you can't, then please stop wasting/destroying other people's work because - I don't know - maybe you believe that you have a mission to save the world and you know how to steer people to do what you want them to do with false or at least not fully correct information on this wiki. I don't understand this approach of yours but I still kindly ask you to reconsider your practices and keep (or at least allow others to keep) the information quality standards that Bitcoin IMHO clearly deserves.
			[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 01:37, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Luke-jr: /* Why does my Bitcoin address keep changing? */

2014-10-31T01:09:22Z

Why does my Bitcoin address keep changing?

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	Since you don't seem to provide any support for them, can we eventually remove the false statements? luke-jr?		Since you don't seem to provide any support for them, can we eventually remove the false statements? luke-jr?
	[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 14:51, 30 October 2014 (UTC)		[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 14:51, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

			* There are no false statements. You may not remove the true ones simply because you wish they were not true. --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 01:09, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Silverdr at 14:51, 30 October 2014

2014-10-30T14:51:38Z

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	:::P.S. @Taras: yes. Very well said. And I fully agree: address reuse should be discouraged. By giving full and reliable information. Not by spreading FUD and misinformation. I tried already twice to change the words in the FAQ into something more correct and unbiased, only to find the changes reversed back the next moment. The problem is that those who try to learn and understand this very difficult for new users subject - are instead of facts, presented with opinions of little informational value (if not plainly untrue) with no explanations and no proper references to help them gather the important knowledge. Instead of explaining what really causes the coin losses, they are told that address reuse causes the loss and that sending coins to the same address works by "accident"... [[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 04:33, 29 October 2014 (UTC)		:::P.S. @Taras: yes. Very well said. And I fully agree: address reuse should be discouraged. By giving full and reliable information. Not by spreading FUD and misinformation. I tried already twice to change the words in the FAQ into something more correct and unbiased, only to find the changes reversed back the next moment. The problem is that those who try to learn and understand this very difficult for new users subject - are instead of facts, presented with opinions of little informational value (if not plainly untrue) with no explanations and no proper references to help them gather the important knowledge. Instead of explaining what really causes the coin losses, they are told that address reuse causes the loss and that sending coins to the same address works by "accident"... [[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 04:33, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

			Since you don't seem to provide any support for them, can we eventually remove the false statements? luke-jr?
			[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 14:51, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Taras at 22:18, 29 October 2014

2014-10-29T22:18:16Z

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	:: OK, you won. I am not going to change the section again. I know you'll put your (untrue) words back anyway and I have better things to do than push this back and forth on an idealistic crusade. But I try again and urge you to help people understand things by providing facts ONLY, rather than personal beliefs/wishes/opinions. Something backed with references to reliable sources, showing clearly, beyond doubt that your words provide a solid information.		:: OK, you won. I am not going to change the section again. I know you'll put your (untrue) words back anyway and I have better things to do than push this back and forth on an idealistic crusade. But I try again and urge you to help people understand things by providing facts ONLY, rather than personal beliefs/wishes/opinions. Something backed with references to reliable sources, showing clearly, beyond doubt that your words provide a solid information.

	::[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 04:33, 29 October 2014 (UTC)		::[[User:Silverdr\|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr\|talk]]) 20:20, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

	:::While I agree that address reuse should be discouraged, saying that addresses were designed to be single-use is probably not true. See the following transactions, broadcast by Satoshi Nakamoto:		:::While I agree that address reuse should be discouraged, saying that addresses were designed to be single-use is probably not true. See the following transactions, broadcast by Satoshi Nakamoto:

Silverdr at 04:33, 29 October 2014

2014-10-29T04:33:20Z

@@ Line 59: / Line 59: @@
 :: OK, you won. I am not going to change the section again. I know you'll put your (untrue) words back anyway and I have better things to do than push this back and forth on an idealistic crusade. But I try again and urge you to help people understand things by providing facts *ONLY*, rather than personal beliefs/wishes/opinions. Something backed with references to reliable sources, showing clearly, beyond doubt that your words provide a solid information.
-::{{unsigned|Silverdr|20:20, 28 October 2014‎ (UTC)}}
+::[[User:Silverdr|Silverdr]] ([[User talk:Silverdr|talk]]) 04:33, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 :::While I agree that address reuse should be discouraged, saying that addresses were designed to be single-use is probably not true. See the following transactions, broadcast by Satoshi Nakamoto:
@@ Line 76: / Line 76: @@
 :::As for reference, please see section 10 of bitcoin.pdf, which focuses on privacy. For actual reuse-CAUSED losses, you can Google to find various incidents; the obvious case is when people pay an address they've paid before, but is no longer recognised by the recipient as valid: many with the address reuse misconception have tried to double-deposit to exchanges this way, to find their coins lost forever. Less obvious are the reused r/k constants in signatures, which allowed attackers to calculate the private key holding the rest of the bitcoins received by the addresses in question. There are other ways to lose bitcoins when addresses are being used, but I think these two cases cover both major risk vectors.
 ::: --[[User:Luke-jr|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr|talk]]) 03:08, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Luke-jr: /* Why does my Bitcoin address keep changing? */

2014-10-29T03:08:19Z

Why does my Bitcoin address keep changing?

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	:::[[User:Taras\|Taras]] ([[User talk:Taras\|talk]]) 22:24, 28 October 2014 (UTC)		:::[[User:Taras\|Taras]] ([[User talk:Taras\|talk]]) 22:24, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

			:::Bitcoin was designed as a scripting-based consensus system. Payments were sent to a specific IP address: you would connect to the IP you wanted to pay, and it would give you a unique script to use for the pubkey-script in the Bitcoin consensus system. Manually-conveyed addresses were only later added on top of this as an abstractional hack until a proper solution could be found/implemented to solve the MITM attack it had earlier.
			:::Address reuses does ''not'' always work, and you cannot assume it will work. Even when it works, it does not work correctly since it is insecure and harms the privacy of not only the users involved, but the whole network.
			:::As for reference, please see section 10 of bitcoin.pdf, which focuses on privacy. For actual reuse-CAUSED losses, you can Google to find various incidents; the obvious case is when people pay an address they've paid before, but is no longer recognised by the recipient as valid: many with the address reuse misconception have tried to double-deposit to exchanges this way, to find their coins lost forever. Less obvious are the reused r/k constants in signatures, which allowed attackers to calculate the private key holding the rest of the bitcoins received by the addresses in question. There are other ways to lose bitcoins when addresses are being used, but I think these two cases cover both major risk vectors.
			::: --[[User:Luke-jr\|Luke-jr]] ([[User talk:Luke-jr\|talk]]) 03:08, 29 October 2014 (UTC)