Bitcoin Wiki - User contributions [en]

Payment methods

2012-11-21T01:21:43Z

Darsie: /* Virtual Currencies */

When trading bitcoins for other currencies, one issue that frequently comes up is the mismatch between the hardness (non-reversibility) of bitcoin, and the softness (reversibility) of many of other payment methods. This page lists a number of payment methods, hardness ratings, and more detailed info in the notes field. There is a separate section for virtual currencies at the bottom of the page.

Hardness goes from 0 (extremely soft) to 10 (completely non-reversible).

{| style="border: 1px solid #c6c9ff; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" border="1"
|- style="text-align: center; background-color: #f0f0ff;"
! Method !! Currencies !! Hardness || Notes
|-
| [[Bank wire]] || Various || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. Quick (but expensive) transfers that are not reversible.
|-
| Euro SEPA transfer || EUR || 8 || Usually free wire transfer between European banks. Cleared in one working day after the transaction is done. Unauthorized transfers can be reversed. One trader got his bank account closed and an entry in the database of financially unreliable people after receiving a fraudulent transfer.
|-
| [[Liberty Reserve]] || EUR, USD || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. However, it is difficult to get LR funded - it is only possible through third-party exchangers.
|-
| Webmoney || USD, RUB, BYR, EUR, XAU || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. Requires funding by bank wire though, which may be expensive for small amounts.
|-
| [[PayPal]] - regular || Most world currencies || 0 || Extremely easy to charge back. Also, since trading bitcoin is against their ToS, good luck disputing the chargeback. Do not use.
|-
| Paypal - personal || Most world currencies || 1-5 || If funded via bank, requires person to dispute the ACH, which may be more arduous. If funded via credit card, requires person to dispute the CC charge, which is pretty easy. Since there's no way to tell what the funding source was... it's a gamble. Also, if paypal account is reported stolen, paypal will probably attempt to claw back the money.
|-
| Paypal - masspay || Most world currencies || 7 || Mass pay requires funding from paypal balance. Generally much harder to reverse, but not impossible. Probably your biggest worry here is an actual stolen account.
|-
| [[Dwolla]] || USD || 3? || Since Dwolla amounts are funded via ACH, Dwolla will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud. Additionally, Dwolla's Terms and Conditions now state that peyments received are subject to chargebacks as the result of their internal dispute resolution processK<ref>[http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/8067352221 Dwolla's New Terms: "receiving party may be subject to chargebacks"]</ref>.
|-
| [[Serve]]|| USD || 0 || Extremely easy to charge back.
|-
| [[AlertPay]]|| Many currencies || 1 || Because payment may be made using a credit card a charge back is easy. Doing so however will cause the account to be closed.
|-
| [[Skrill|Skrill (Moneybookers)]] || || 0 || Chargebacks are possible. Accounts have been terminated when this payment method was used for a Bitcoin trade.
|-
| Neteller || || ||
|-
| Western Union Money Transfer || || 9 || A money transfer can be stopped but once funds are withdrawn as cash there's little risk<ref>[http://www.ehow.com/how_8059315_stop-payment-via-western-union.html How to Stop Payment Via Western Union]</ref>.
|-
| Money Order || || 5 || A money order can be lost or stolen and there are procedures for reporting that. Losses could occur even weeks after the check has cleared<ref>[http://www.ehow.com/how_7319971_stop-payment-money-order.html How to Stop Payment on a Money Order]</ref>.
|-
| [[MoneyPak]] || USD || 7 || MoneyPaks are reversible if claimed stolen. There have been reports where the party attempting to redeem a MoneyPak number has been asked to provide a copy of the receipt used to purchase the MoneyPak. Ask for a copy of the receipt when accepting MP to protect yourself.
|-
| Personal check || Any currency || 5 || At least in the USA, once a check clears, it is hard to claw back except when fraud is alleged.
|-
| Bank ACH || USD || 5 || Sometimes referred to a type of ACH transaction, a direct deposit. Though not very easily, ACH can actually be clawed back if the transaction was the result of fraud.
|-
| Interac e-Transfer || CAD || 3 || A funds transfer service between personal and business accounts at participating
Canadian financial institutions. In cases of identity theft the transfer may be reversed, especially if both parties are with the same financial institution<ref>[http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118631.0 Is Interac e-transfer a good way of trading bitcoins?]</ref>.
|-
| Cash in mail || Any currency || 10 || No chargebacks, obviously. Just check for counterfeit paper.
|-
| Cash at bank || Any currency || n/a || Some exchanges (e.g., [[Virtex]] and OTC traders accept cash deposited to an account at a bank.
|-
| Check at bank || Any currency || n/a || Some exchanges accept a check deposited to an account at a bank.
|-
| Credit card || Any currency || 0 || Dead easy to charge back<ref>[http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/visa-chargeback-reason-codes-and-time-limits Visa Chargeback Reason Codes and Time Limits]</reF>, <ref>[http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/mastercard-chargeback-reason-codes MasterCard Chargeback Reason Codes]</ref>. Do not use.
|-
| [[TransferWise]] || GBP to EUR || ||
|-
| Intra-bank transfer || || ||
|-
| [[Popmoney]] ACH || USD || 5 || Since Popmoney transfers occur via ACH, Popmoney will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| [[ING Person2Person]] || USD || 5 || Since Person2Person transfers occur via ACH, ING will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| [[Pingit]] || UK || 5 || Barclays will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| Chase QuickPay || USD || 3 || Chase has reversed legitimate transactions as the result of anti-fraud measures<ref>[http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11494.0 Chase QuickPay NOT RECOMMENDED]</ref> requiring the sender to be trusted to re-pay. The sender can also request a reversal after submitting an affidavit alleging that fraud occurred.
|-
| AliPay || CNY || n/a || Though reports of reversed AliPay payments can be found on the Internet, the operator of [[Bitcoinica]] asserts that AliPay transaction are "non-reversible"<ref>[http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65003.msg763730#msg763730 Bitcoinica now supports Alipay deposit!]</ref>.
|-
| [[UKash]] || many || n/a || A cash-based voucher system.
|-
| [[CashU]] || many || n/a || A cash-based prepaid card / redeemable code.
|-
| Bitcoin || BTC || 10 || While the bitcoin network has no concept of a bitcoin transaction being reversed, there could be the possibility of an exchange or merchant refusing to accept a bitcoin for various reasons (e.g., funds were stolen).
|-
| [[Redeemable code]] || USD, BTC || ? || These are generally bearer instruments so the "hardness" would seem to approach a 10 however each exchange that issues a redeemable code may have its own policy. As these are a fairly new tool, it is not known if any exchanges will refuse to honor a code of their own (e.g., customer claims that the code had been stolen).
|-
| Amazon Gift Card || various || ? || 4. Fraud.
Amazon.com will have the right to close customer accounts and bill alternative forms of payment if a fraudulently obtained Amazon.com Gift Card is redeemed and/or used to make purchases on amazon.com or any of its affiliated websites set forth above. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/gc)
|}

=== Virtual Currencies ===
{| style="border: 1px solid #c6c9ff; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" border="1"
|- style="text-align: center; background-color: #f0f0ff;"
! Method !! Currencies !! Hardness || Notes
|-
| In-game || SLL || 5 || There may or may not be a dispute process if a user claims a transfer was done against the TOS. SLL originally bought from unauthorized sources (stolen CC, hacked PP) may be deducted from a users SLL balance.
|-
|}

==See Also==

* [[Secure Trading]]
* [[Digital currency]]
* [[:Category:Money transmitters|Money transmitters]]
* [http://stakeventures.com/articles/2012/03/07/the-may-scale-of-money-hardness-and-bitcoin The May Scale of Money Hardness and BitCoin]
* [[Mobile Payment Apps]]

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Financial]]

Payment methods

2012-10-17T19:05:18Z

Darsie:

When trading bitcoins for other currencies, one issue that frequently comes up is the mismatch between the hardness (non-reversibility) of bitcoin, and the softness (reversibility) of many of other payment methods. This page lists a number of payment methods, hardness ratings, and more detailed info in the notes field. There is a separate section for virtual currencies at the bottom of the page.

Hardness goes from 0 (extremely soft) to 10 (completely non-reversible).

{| style="border: 1px solid #c6c9ff; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" border="1"
|- style="text-align: center; background-color: #f0f0ff;"
! Method !! Currencies !! Hardness || Notes
|-
| [[Bank wire]] || Various || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. Quick (but expensive) transfers that are not reversible.
|-
| Euro SEPA transfer || EUR || 8 || Usually free wire transfer between European banks. Cleared in one working day after the transaction is done. Unauthorized transfers can be reversed. One trader got his bank account closed and an entry in the database of financially unreliable people after receiving a fraudulent transfer.
|-
| [[Liberty Reserve]] || EUR, USD || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. However, it is difficult to get LR funded - it is only possible through third-party exchangers.
|-
| Webmoney || USD, RUB, BYR, EUR, XAU || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. Requires funding by bank wire though, which may be expensive for small amounts.
|-
| [[PayPal]] - regular || Most world currencies || 0 || Extremely easy to charge back. Also, since trading bitcoin is against their ToS, good luck disputing the chargeback. Do not use.
|-
| Paypal - personal || Most world currencies || 1-5 || If funded via bank, requires person to dispute the ACH, which may be more arduous. If funded via credit card, requires person to dispute the CC charge, which is pretty easy. Since there's no way to tell what the funding source was... it's a gamble. Also, if paypal account is reported stolen, paypal will probably attempt to claw back the money.
|-
| Paypal - masspay || Most world currencies || 7 || Mass pay requires funding from paypal balance. Generally much harder to reverse, but not impossible. Probably your biggest worry here is an actual stolen account.
|-
| [[Dwolla]] || USD || 3? || Since Dwolla amounts are funded via ACH, Dwolla will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud. Additionally, Dwolla's Terms and Conditions now state that peyments received are subject to chargebacks as the result of their internal dispute resolution processK<ref>[http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/8067352221 Dwolla's New Terms: "receiving party may be subject to chargebacks"]</ref>.
|-
| [[Serve]]|| USD || 0 || Extremely easy to charge back.
|-
| [[AlertPay]]|| Many currencies || 1 || Because payment may be made using a credit card a charge back is easy. Doing so however will cause the account to be closed.
|-
| [[Skrill|Skrill (Moneybookers)]] || || 0 || Chargebacks are possible. Accounts have been terminated when this payment method was used for a Bitcoin trade.
|-
| Neteller || || ||
|-
| Western Union Money Transfer || || 9 || A money transfer can be stopped but once funds are withdrawn as cash there's little risk<ref>[http://www.ehow.com/how_8059315_stop-payment-via-western-union.html How to Stop Payment Via Western Union]</ref>.
|-
| Money Order || || 5 || A money order can be lost or stolen and there are procedures for reporting that. Losses could occur even weeks after the check has cleared<ref>[http://www.ehow.com/how_7319971_stop-payment-money-order.html How to Stop Payment on a Money Order]</ref>.
|-
| [[MoneyPak]] || USD || 7 || MoneyPaks are reversible if claimed stolen. There have been reports where the party attempting to redeem a MoneyPak number has been asked to provide a copy of the receipt used to purchase the MoneyPak. Ask for a copy of the receipt when accepting MP to protect yourself.
|-
| Personal check || Any currency || 5 || At least in the USA, once a check clears, it is hard to claw back except when fraud is alleged.
|-
| Bank ACH || USD || 5 || Sometimes referred to a type of ACH transaction, a direct deposit. Though not very easily, ACH can actually be clawed back if the transaction was the result of fraud.
|-
| Interac e-Transfer || CAD || 3 || A funds transfer service between personal and business accounts at participating
Canadian financial institutions. In cases of identity theft the transfer may be reversed, especially if both parties are with the same financial institution<ref>[http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118631.0 Is Interac e-transfer a good way of trading bitcoins?]</ref>.
|-
| Cash in mail || Any currency || 10 || No chargebacks, obviously. Just check for counterfeit paper.
|-
| Cash at bank || Any currency || n/a || Some exchanges (e.g., [[Virtex]] and OTC traders accept cash deposited to an account at a bank.
|-
| Check at bank || Any currency || n/a || Some exchanges accept a check deposited to an account at a bank.
|-
| Credit card || Any currency || 0 || Dead easy to charge back<ref>[http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/visa-chargeback-reason-codes-and-time-limits Visa Chargeback Reason Codes and Time Limits]</reF>, <ref>[http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/mastercard-chargeback-reason-codes MasterCard Chargeback Reason Codes]</ref>. Do not use.
|-
| [[TransferWise]] || GBP to EUR || ||
|-
| Intra-bank transfer || || ||
|-
| [[Popmoney]] ACH || USD || 5 || Since Popmoney transfers occur via ACH, Popmoney will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| [[ING Person2Person]] || USD || 5 || Since Person2Person transfers occur via ACH, ING will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| [[Pingit]] || UK || 5 || Barclays will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| Chase QuickPay || USD || 3 || Chase has reversed legitimate transactions as the result of anti-fraud measures<ref>[http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11494.0 Chase QuickPay NOT RECOMMENDED]</ref> requiring the sender to be trusted to re-pay. The sender can also request a reversal after submitting an affidavit alleging that fraud occurred.
|-
| AliPay || CNY || n/a || Though reports of reversed AliPay payments can be found on the Internet, the operator of [[Bitcoinica]] asserts that AliPay transaction are "non-reversible"<ref>[http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65003.msg763730#msg763730 Bitcoinica now supports Alipay deposit!]</ref>.
|-
| [[UKash]] || many || n/a || A cash-based voucher system.
|-
| [[CashU]] || many || n/a || A cash-based prepaid card / redeemable code.
|-
| Bitcoin || BTC || 10 || While the bitcoin network has no concept of a bitcoin transaction being reversed, there could be the possibility of an exchange or merchant refusing to accept a bitcoin for various reasons (e.g., funds were stolen).
|-
| [[Redeemable code]] || USD, BTC || ? || These are generally bearer instruments so the "hardness" would seem to approach a 10 however each exchange that issues a redeemable code may have its own policy. As these are a fairly new tool, it is not known if any exchanges will refuse to honor a code of their own (e.g., customer claims that the code had been stolen).
|-
| Amazon Gift Card || various || ? || 4. Fraud.
Amazon.com will have the right to close customer accounts and bill alternative forms of payment if a fraudulently obtained Amazon.com Gift Card is redeemed and/or used to make purchases on amazon.com or any of its affiliated websites set forth above. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/gc)
|}

=== Virtual Currencies ===
{| style="border: 1px solid #c6c9ff; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" border="1"
|- style="text-align: center; background-color: #f0f0ff;"
! Method !! Currencies !! Hardness || Notes
|-
| In-game || SLL || 5 || There may or may not be a dispute process if a user claims a transfer was done against the TOS.
|-
|}

==See Also==

* [[Secure Trading]]
* [[Digital currency]]
* [[:Category:Money transmitters|Money transmitters]]
* [http://stakeventures.com/articles/2012/03/07/the-may-scale-of-money-hardness-and-bitcoin The May Scale of Money Hardness and BitCoin]
* [[Mobile Payment Apps]]

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Financial]]

Talk:Mining hardware comparison

2012-09-27T00:20:36Z

Darsie: /* ASIC section */ new section

== Bad Pricce Quotes ==
When looking up prices, check for scammers gaming the system by:
# Google the vendor(s) for ratings
# Check the actual page price (not just the Google shopping summary)
# Check the stock
# Checking for excessive shipping costs (Shipping is variable, Google shopping usually lists the the *total* price for multiple vendors, check against those vendors.)

== Mega-hashes per Watt vs Mega-hashes per Joule ==
Question about mega-hashes per Watt versus mega-hashes per Joule. Does anyone have an opinion? Most people know what a Watt is but I think seeing MHash/J could be confusing to some people. While perhaps being more accurate, using "/J" might go over some people's heads, especially since the edit was given with little to no explanation. [[User:Vast|Vast]] 06:45, 19 April 2011 (GMT)
: How about adding a note about what a Joule is somewhere people will see? --[[User:TiagoTiago|TiagoTiago]] 21:40, 9 May 2011 (GMT)
:: Hmmmmm... if only there was an online encyclopedia people could look it up in... [[User:Physics|Physics]] 06:52, 13 May 2011 (GMT)
::: In my opinion the MHash/s/W was more enlighting for non physicans, but hey, I don't really care. [[User:SmokeTooMuch|SmokeTooMuch]] 22:12, 30 May 2011 (GMT)
:::: Isn't electricity usually billed in kWh? Would it make more sense to convert to that so all a user has to do is multiply that by their local electricity rate? --[[User:Imsaguy|Imsaguy]] 01:00, 24 July 2011 (GMT)
One could write down an example on how to calculate the costs. Something like that:
:Power that the device consumes: 200 W = 200 Watts = 0.2 kW = 0.2 Kilowatts
:Price per kWh: 22 Cent = 0.22 $
::Price per hour: 0.2 * 0.22 $ = 0.044 $
::Price per day: 24 * 0.044 $ = 1.056 $
::Price per month: 30 * 1.056 $ = 31.68 $
[[User:Uiaenrtd|Uiaenrtd]] ([[User talk:Uiaenrtd|talk]]) 10:19, 31 August 2012 (GMT)

== AMT Stream SDK Note ==
Is the note about the AMD Stream SDK valid anymore? Looking down the list it seems people are doing just as well and sometimes better on the 2.3 and 2.4 SDK as compared to the 2.1. [[User:Tybeet|Tybeet]] 23:04, 5 May 2011 (GMT)
: It depends on the mining application and the OpenCL kernel used I think. Phoenix with phatk mines faster on SDK 2.4 than on SDK 2.1 under 32-bit Windows 7. [[User:Icaci|Icaci]] 18:27, 29 May 2011 (GMT)
:: If version is relevant, then it should be listed per row in the measurements table versus having a blank statement at the top of the page. --[[User:Imsaguy|Imsaguy]] 01:00, 24 July 2011 (GMT)

== Color Coding ==

What is the color coding indicative of?
: I think it is just a way to easily group cards of each type [[User:Fnord123|Fnord123]] 15:44, 23 May 2011 (GMT)

== Power Calculation ==

How do people calculate power? I took the [http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2011-gaming-graphics-charts/2D-Power-Draw,2677.html idle power numbers from Tom's Hardware], then measured incremental power w/a Kill-A-Watt when hashing on my ATI 6970 (its the one w/1.96 Mhashes/W). [[User:Fnord123|Fnord123]] 15:42, 23 May 2011 (GMT)
: Ideally it should be MEASURED, not calculated -- [[User:Vlnv|Vlnv]] 2011-06-24

:: For non ideal scenarios:
:: Pick the "core clock" and "Max Power Draw" for your card [http://www.gpureview.com/ here] and then estimates the Power Draw in overclocked cards [http://bakkap.free.fr/Misc/wCalc.html here] -- [[User:barreto80|barreto80]] 2011-06-30
:::If that is the case, then really there should be some sort of indicator showing it is a calculation/estimation versus a measurement. --[[User:Imsaguy|Imsaguy]] 01:00, 24 July 2011 (GMT)

== OS Listing ==

Think extracting out an OS column would be useful? Possibly OS version or architecture as well.
: CPU architecture, OS, distro name, kernel version, like: i686, GNU/Linux, Fedora 14, 2.6.35.13-92.fc14.i686.PAE [[User:Vlnv|Vlnv]] 2011-06-24

== Cheapest card per mhash/s ? ==
i'll pick ... the 5830 --[[User:Compn|Compn]] 16:51, 3 June 2011 (GMT)
: Ideally I'd add the date of purchase and cost of the card benchmarked, so that MH/USD could be calculated -- [[User:Vlnv|Vlnv]] 2011-06-24

== Point of reference or benchmark chart? ==

This page could use some serious cleaning up.

I think it needs to be decided if this page is a point of reference or a collection of benchmarks. If it's a point of reference, there should only be one entry per hardware type (video card model, cpu, etc.) with stock performance. Some video card entries have over six variations with different over clocking/settings.

:Identical (or near-identical) entries aren't that useful, but other than I find it helpful to see what variations worked, even for a given card, especially with so many variables in play. [[User:Mumpsimus|Mumpsimus]] 01:17, 15 June 2011 (GMT)
:I'd rather see this as a collection of benchmarks - with enough information about platform, software versions and options used. There can be another page with this "raw" date aggregated on a per card basis if needed. But - better reference to exact card benchmarked should be here. I see tons of links to some Amazon site on all cards. Does not make any sense. Should refer to manufacturer site, or to particular Webstore that that particular card was purchased, ideally high resolution photos of the particular card disassembled, so that chip datecodes and specific revisions could be read. -- [[User:Vlnv|Vlnv]] 2011-06-24]
::It says hardware comparison, not settings comparison. This page should be where the various cards are compared with stock settings. From there a person could link to an individual page or pages that list the details and possible scenarios for each card. --[[User:Imsaguy|Imsaguy]] 01:00, 24 July 2011 (GMT)

== Clarification of model number vs. number of cards. ==
[[User:Jthibo|Jthibo]] 18:10, 15 June 2011 (GMT)

I've noticed that people are putting in things like 6990x2 to indicate having 2, 6990 dual-gpu cards. The problem is that this is also how AMD numbers some of their card models to indicate the number of GPUs on the card. For example, I have a 4870 X2, which is the model number of the card (the X2 indicates dual-gpu, as opposed to the regular, single GPU 4870.) I see some people have put in entries for a 4870x2, but is this 2 (4870) cards, or 1 (4870 X2) card (or even 2 (4870 X2) cards?)

Perhaps we should have quantity number placed in parenthesis, so 2 4870 cards would be "4870 (x2)", and 1 4870 X2 card would be "4870 X2"? Or some variation on that. Perhaps even another column denoting the total number of GPUs for the entry?

: This is a comparison of hardware, 2 * 5770, for example, is no more than useful than a single 5770, yet a card with 2 GPUs on, is useful. Multi-GPU setups should be removed, imo. --[[User:Rallan|Rallan]] 19:22, 15 June 2011 (GMT)
: Although this is not just a hardware comparison - software used, versions, parameters are very usuful here, but these x2 listings are confusing, and most importantly performance should be reported on a per GPU basis, i.e. divided by 2, with x2 or x4 in the notes column -- [[User:Vlnv|Vlnv]] 2011-06-24

::There are probably times where 2 cards in a machine aren't necessarily the same as having two machines each with one card. Should that be indicated somewhere? --[[User:Imsaguy|Imsaguy]] 01:00, 24 July 2011 (GMT)

== Affiliate Links ==

I removed affiliate links that were added to the card entries. It looks like someone is trying to selfishly monetize this wiki page. They were added with the [https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=Mining_hardware_comparison&oldid=11398 09:43, 23 June 2011] edit by [https://en.bitcoin.it/w/index.php?title=User:Mininin Mininin]. For shame.

* Second time the affiliate links had to be removed. I will police this aggressively as I maintain a separate database with pricing that is actually accurate for this type of thing. [[User:Kristopher|Kristopher]] 17:51, 11 July 2011 (GMT)

== Mhash / $ / € ==

What is this silly "Mhash / $ / €" column all about ?
Is it the buying price for the Hardware ?
Is it the price of the electricity ?
Both will vary WAAY TOO MUCH !

I can Buy a 5770 in Germany for 70 Euros, where as it will cost over 110 Euros in Turkey. Electricity on the other hand costs approx 22 €ct/kWh in Germany where as it costs only 11 €ct/kWh in Turkey.

Just an example for two countries where I know the numbers from the top of my head. Just want to clarifiy that the column is nonsense and everybody has to calculate it according to their own LOCAL MARKET PRICES !
-- [[User:Chippy|Chippy]] 00:03, 26 June 2011 (GMT)

* It is stupid that people keep putting these calculations on the table. Most are not correct. Stop doing it. If you really want that info, go to my website, bitminer.info [[User:Kristopher|Kristopher]] 17:53, 11 July 2011 (GMT)

== Wrong Data 7850 ==

I thinkt the data for the ATI 7850 single gpu is wrong.
Should I just change it?
I got an 7850 OC (overclocked) and get this data

[[File:7850OC.png]]

== Don't add traps like $/day figures ==

Stuff like $/day encourages unsound reasoning by people who don't know better. It seems likely now that the difficulty is about to go up a bunch, and even if it doesn't the reward is going to halve before anything pays itself off. Likewise don't list price and performance for speculative, unreleased products that could just be scams, or may not live up to specs or be available for many months. --[[User:Gmaxwell|Gmaxwell]] ([[User talk:Gmaxwell|talk]]) 01:37, 15 September 2012 (GMT)

== ASIC section ==

I want the ASIC section in here. It's very interesting and informative, and we can put a note there, that this is preliminary data. darsie

In Person Traders

2012-09-25T03:27:19Z

Darsie: log -> ln

This page is a map of people trading bitcoins in person in the real world. (Person to Person transactions) These are usually done using cash. If you have no bitcoins and are new to this, the trader is likely able to help you with the transaction and setting up a wallet.

Feel free to add yourself to the map by editing this page, and include some form of contact information. Also, you can include the calculation for your buy/sell prices and how much you are willing to buy/sell.

{|
! style="padding-right: 1ex" | Legend:
| style="padding-right: 1em" | [[Image:Green_marker.png|15px]] Sell Bitcoins here
| style="padding-right: 1em" | [[Image:Blue_marker.png|15px]] Buy Bitcoins here
| style="padding-right: 1em" | [[Image:Red_marker.png|15px]] Buy and sell here
|}



<display_points height=700 >
48.133825, 11.575840|AnCapitol| I sell BTC from 1-200 EUR in Person. Contact me at ancapitol@yahoo.de , via IRC or AnCapitol@jabb3r.de I will only conduct business with people who will provide a PGP-Key for communication. I'll help you, if you don't have one. Check out https://localbitcoins.com/ad/840/buy-bitcoins-with-cash-80331-munchen-germany for my prices! |File:Blue_marker.png
53.52505, -113.52068|Andrew| I sell at the up-to-the-minute Mt Gox Ask Price + 1% fee for Mt Gox code or 2% for plain bitcoin. My gmail account is onelineproof |File:Blue_marker.png
33.018308, -96.79498|Ataranlen| Contact via ataranlen@gmail.com or on the FreeNode IRC in #bitcoin-otc. I generally have a decent supply of Bitcoins. You can also buy any of my items listed on the Bitcointalk.org forums and do local pickup. |File:Red_marker.png
19.50050, -99.13088|BitcoinMX| Contact via https://bitcoinmx.appspot.com/ |File:Red_marker.png
52.348868, 4.904366|AMS-BTC| contact via bookie988@gmail.com|File:Red_marker.png
55.660314, 12.490704|Bitcoin Nordic| See more at www.bitcoinnordic.com|File:Red_marker.png
52.519171, 13.4060912|BitcoinsinBerlin.com| We always buy and sell BTC. See bitcoinsinberlin.com for details|File:Red_marker.png
48.19404,16.36922|darsie|Mt.Gox prices; fee = 1 EUR + 4% to 0.25% depending on value (the formula for the fee in EUR is 1+x*(0.005+0.04/(ln(x/1000+2.8)**2.5)) :-), where x is in EUR). Will trade up to a few thousand EUR. Large deals will take some preparation time. irc://darsie@irc.freenode.net, bernhard@bksys.at, skype://darsie42, 1040 Wien|File:Red_marker.png
59.33345,17.97604|DeaDTerra| I buy and sell Bitcoins for SEK, contact me at terragubben@gmail.com|File:Red_marker.png
40.791389, -77.848526|Happy Valley Bitcoin| Buy and sell for cash with higher of $5. or 2% commission. happy.valley.bitcoin@gmail.com|File:Red_marker.png
28.54035, -82.40398|Luke-Jr| I can be reached on FreeNode IRC.
28.52285, -82.30343|Luke-Jr| I can be reached on FreeNode IRC.
40.735064, -73.572028|LI BTC| NYC, Nassau & Suffolk - email: libtc at hush_com |File:Red_marker.png
52.23989, 6.852379|Mqrius| Contact me at Nuntius.Marii@Gmail.com for rates and arranging things. My feedback can be found here: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Mqrius |File:Red_marker.png
45.434033,28.054722|enkumber| Vand/Cumpar/Schimb Bitcoin cu cash, paypal, libertyreserve sau webmoney. 0722431554 sau yahoo messenger: enkumber203 |File:Red_marker.png
44.43553, 26.10255|ovidiusoft| Buying and selling in RON, EUR and USD. Contact by email - ovidiu@mybox.ro |File:Red_marker.png
45.444785, -122.831282|Robert Kohr| email my gmail account - robkohr. I will sell at mtgox*1.15 and buy at mtgox*1.0 |File:Red_marker.png
45.5366557, -122.9570263|Robert Kohr| email my gmail account - robkohr. I will sell at mtgox*1.15 and buy at mtgox*1.0 |File:Red_marker.png
-16.681952,-49.260764| rudrigorc2| I'm on a trip till June. Contact via rudrigorc2 - bitcointalk.org forum or #bitcoin-bra@FreenodeIRC|File:red_marker.png
-13.525, -71.9722222| neofutur| cusco, peru, contact me on irc: http://gw.gd/irc|File:red_marker.png
48.689866,6.17463|sgnb|I can be reached on FreeNode IRC.
50.87783,4.704012|Bitcoinleuven| Contact me at localbitcoin@gmail.com for details and we'll arrange a meeting. I buy and sell bitcoins in exchange for cash. If you're new to Bitcoin, just buy me a drink and I'll explain everything you'd like to know about this amazing cybercurrency :-)|File:Red_marker.png
</display_points>

===See Also===
* [[Trade]]
* [[:Category:Local|Similar real-world exchange services]]
* [http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74912.0 HipSwap - Like Craigslist + Local Delivery]
* [http://localbitcoins.com Localbitcoins.com - Find a local bitcoin dealer]

[[Category:Local]]
[[Category:Exchanges]]

In Person Traders

2012-09-25T03:03:56Z

Darsie: darsie added

This page is a map of people trading bitcoins in person in the real world. (Person to Person transactions) These are usually done using cash. If you have no bitcoins and are new to this, the trader is likely able to help you with the transaction and setting up a wallet.

Feel free to add yourself to the map by editing this page, and include some form of contact information. Also, you can include the calculation for your buy/sell prices and how much you are willing to buy/sell.

{|
! style="padding-right: 1ex" | Legend:
| style="padding-right: 1em" | [[Image:Green_marker.png|15px]] Sell Bitcoins here
| style="padding-right: 1em" | [[Image:Blue_marker.png|15px]] Buy Bitcoins here
| style="padding-right: 1em" | [[Image:Red_marker.png|15px]] Buy and sell here
|}



<display_points height=700 >
48.133825, 11.575840|AnCapitol| I sell BTC from 1-200 EUR in Person. Contact me at ancapitol@yahoo.de , via IRC or AnCapitol@jabb3r.de I will only conduct business with people who will provide a PGP-Key for communication. I'll help you, if you don't have one. Check out https://localbitcoins.com/ad/840/buy-bitcoins-with-cash-80331-munchen-germany for my prices! |File:Blue_marker.png
53.52505, -113.52068|Andrew| I sell at the up-to-the-minute Mt Gox Ask Price + 1% fee for Mt Gox code or 2% for plain bitcoin. My gmail account is onelineproof |File:Blue_marker.png
33.018308, -96.79498|Ataranlen| Contact via ataranlen@gmail.com or on the FreeNode IRC in #bitcoin-otc. I generally have a decent supply of Bitcoins. You can also buy any of my items listed on the Bitcointalk.org forums and do local pickup. |File:Red_marker.png
19.50050, -99.13088|BitcoinMX| Contact via https://bitcoinmx.appspot.com/ |File:Red_marker.png
52.348868, 4.904366|AMS-BTC| contact via bookie988@gmail.com|File:Red_marker.png
55.660314, 12.490704|Bitcoin Nordic| See more at www.bitcoinnordic.com|File:Red_marker.png
52.519171, 13.4060912|BitcoinsinBerlin.com| We always buy and sell BTC. See bitcoinsinberlin.com for details|File:Red_marker.png
48.19404,16.36922|darsie|Mt.Gox prices; fee = 1 EUR + 4% to 0.25% depending on value (the formula for the fee in EUR is 1+x*(0.005+0.04/(log(x/1000+2.8)**2.5)) :-), where x is in EUR). Will trade up to a few thousand EUR. Large deals will take some preparation time. irc://darsie@irc.freenode.net, bernhard@bksys.at, skype://darsie42, 1040 Wien|File:Red_marker.png
59.33345,17.97604|DeaDTerra| I buy and sell Bitcoins for SEK, contact me at terragubben@gmail.com|File:Red_marker.png
40.791389, -77.848526|Happy Valley Bitcoin| Buy and sell for cash with higher of $5. or 2% commission. happy.valley.bitcoin@gmail.com|File:Red_marker.png
28.54035, -82.40398|Luke-Jr| I can be reached on FreeNode IRC.
28.52285, -82.30343|Luke-Jr| I can be reached on FreeNode IRC.
40.735064, -73.572028|LI BTC| NYC, Nassau & Suffolk - email: libtc at hush_com |File:Red_marker.png
52.23989, 6.852379|Mqrius| Contact me at Nuntius.Marii@Gmail.com for rates and arranging things. My feedback can be found here: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=Mqrius |File:Red_marker.png
45.434033,28.054722|enkumber| Vand/Cumpar/Schimb Bitcoin cu cash, paypal, libertyreserve sau webmoney. 0722431554 sau yahoo messenger: enkumber203 |File:Red_marker.png
44.43553, 26.10255|ovidiusoft| Buying and selling in RON, EUR and USD. Contact by email - ovidiu@mybox.ro |File:Red_marker.png
45.444785, -122.831282|Robert Kohr| email my gmail account - robkohr. I will sell at mtgox*1.15 and buy at mtgox*1.0 |File:Red_marker.png
45.5366557, -122.9570263|Robert Kohr| email my gmail account - robkohr. I will sell at mtgox*1.15 and buy at mtgox*1.0 |File:Red_marker.png
-16.681952,-49.260764| rudrigorc2| I'm on a trip till June. Contact via rudrigorc2 - bitcointalk.org forum or #bitcoin-bra@FreenodeIRC|File:red_marker.png
-13.525, -71.9722222| neofutur| cusco, peru, contact me on irc: http://gw.gd/irc|File:red_marker.png
48.689866,6.17463|sgnb|I can be reached on FreeNode IRC.
50.87783,4.704012|Bitcoinleuven| Contact me at localbitcoin@gmail.com for details and we'll arrange a meeting. I buy and sell bitcoins in exchange for cash. If you're new to Bitcoin, just buy me a drink and I'll explain everything you'd like to know about this amazing cybercurrency :-)|File:Red_marker.png
</display_points>

===See Also===
* [[Trade]]
* [[:Category:Local|Similar real-world exchange services]]
* [http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=74912.0 HipSwap - Like Craigslist + Local Delivery]
* [http://localbitcoins.com Localbitcoins.com - Find a local bitcoin dealer]

[[Category:Local]]
[[Category:Exchanges]]

Payment methods

2012-09-13T12:06:08Z

Darsie: Amazon Gift Card

When trading bitcoins for other currencies, one issue that frequently comes up is the mismatch between the hardness (non-reversibility) of bitcoin, and the softness (reversibility) of many of other payment methods. This page lists a number of payment methods, hardness ratings, and more detailed info in the notes field. There is a separate section for virtual currencies at the bottom of the page.

Hardness goes from 0 (extremely soft) to 10 (completely non-reversible).

{| style="border: 1px solid #c6c9ff; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" border="1"
|- style="text-align: center; background-color: #f0f0ff;"
! Method !! Currencies !! Hardness || Notes
|-
| [[Bank wire]] || Various || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. Quick (but expensive) transfers that are not reversible.
|-
| Euro SEPA transfer || EUR || 10 || Non-reversible, usually free wire transfer between European banks. Cleared in one working day after the transaction is done.
|-
| [[Liberty Reserve]] || EUR, USD || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. However, it is difficult to get LR funded - it is only possible through third-party exchangers.
|-
| Webmoney || USD, RUB, BYR, EUR, XAU || 10 || Very good match for trading bitcoin. Requires funding by bank wire though, which may be expensive for small amounts.
|-
| [[PayPal]] - regular || Most world currencies || 0 || Extremely easy to charge back. Also, since trading bitcoin is against their ToS, good luck disputing the chargeback. Do not use.
|-
| Paypal - personal || Most world currencies || 1-5 || If funded via bank, requires person to dispute the ACH, which may be more arduous. If funded via credit card, requires person to dispute the CC charge, which is pretty easy. Since there's no way to tell what the funding source was... it's a gamble. Also, if paypal account is reported stolen, paypal will probably attempt to claw back the money.
|-
| Paypal - masspay || Most world currencies || 7 || Mass pay requires funding from paypal balance. Generally much harder to reverse, but not impossible. Probably your biggest worry here is an actual stolen account.
|-
| [[Dwolla]] || USD || 3? || Since Dwolla amounts are funded via ACH, Dwolla will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud. Additionally, Dwolla's Terms and Conditions now state that peyments received are subject to chargebacks as the result of their internal dispute resolution processK<ref>[http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/8067352221 Dwolla's New Terms: "receiving party may be subject to chargebacks"]</ref>.
|-
| [[Serve]]|| USD || 0 || Extremely easy to charge back.
|-
| [[AlertPay]]|| Many currencies || 1 || Because payment may be made using a credit card a charge back is easy. Doing so however will cause the account to be closed.
|-
| [[Skrill|Skrill (Moneybookers)]] || || 0 || Chargebacks are possible. Accounts have been terminated when this payment method was used for a Bitcoin trade.
|-
| Neteller || || ||
|-
| Western Union Money Transfer || || 9 || A money transfer can be stopped but once funds are withdrawn as cash there's little risk<ref>[http://www.ehow.com/how_8059315_stop-payment-via-western-union.html How to Stop Payment Via Western Union]</ref>.
|-
| Money Order || || 5 || A money order can be lost or stolen and there are procedures for reporting that. Losses could occur even weeks after the check has cleared<ref>[http://www.ehow.com/how_7319971_stop-payment-money-order.html How to Stop Payment on a Money Order]</ref>.
|-
| [[MoneyPak]] || USD || 7 || MoneyPaks are reversible if claimed stolen. There have been reports where the party attempting to redeem a MoneyPak number has been asked to provide a copy of the receipt used to purchase the MoneyPak. Ask for a copy of the receipt when accepting MP to protect yourself.
|-
| Personal check || Any currency || 5 || At least in the USA, once a check clears, it is hard to claw back except when fraud is alleged.
|-
| Bank ACH || USD || 5 || Sometimes referred to a type of ACH transaction, a direct deposit. Though not very easily, ACH can actually be clawed back if the transaction was the result of fraud.
|-
| Cash in mail || Any currency || 10 || No chargebacks, obviously. Just check for counterfeit paper.
|-
| Cash at bank || Any currency || n/a || Some exchanges (e.g., [[Virtex]] and OTC traders accept cash deposited to an account at a bank.
|-
| Check at bank || Any currency || n/a || Some exchanges accept a check deposited to an account at a bank.
|-
| Credit card || Any currency || 0 || Dead easy to charge back<ref>[http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/visa-chargeback-reason-codes-and-time-limits Visa Chargeback Reason Codes and Time Limits]</reF>, <ref>[http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/mastercard-chargeback-reason-codes MasterCard Chargeback Reason Codes]</ref>. Do not use.
|-
| [[TransferWise]] || GBP to EUR || ||
|-
| Intra-bank transfer || || ||
|-
| [[Popmoney]] ACH || USD || 5 || Since Popmoney transfers occur via ACH, Popmoney will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| [[ING Person2Person]] || USD || 5 || Since Person2Person transfers occur via ACH, ING will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| [[Pingit]] || UK || 5 || Barclays will reverse payments if the funds were the result of fraud.
|-
| Chase QuickPay || USD || 3 || Chase has reversed legitimate transactions as the result of anti-fraud measures<ref>[http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11494.0 Chase QuickPay NOT RECOMMENDED]</ref> requiring the sender to be trusted to re-pay. The sender can also request a reversal after submitting an affidavit alleging that fraud occurred.
|-
| AliPay || CNY || n/a || Though reports of reversed AliPay payments can be found on the Internet, the operator of [[Bitcoinica]] asserts that AliPay transaction are "non-reversible"<ref>[http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65003.msg763730#msg763730 Bitcoinica now supports Alipay deposit!]</ref>.
|-
| [[UKash]] || many || n/a || A cash-based voucher system.
|-
| [[CashU]] || many || n/a || A cash-based prepaid card / redeemable code.
|-
| Bitcoin || BTC || 10 || While the bitcoin network has no concept of a bitcoin transaction being reversed, there could be the possibility of an exchange or merchant refusing to accept a bitcoin for various reasons (e.g., funds were stolen).
|-
| [[Redeemable code]] || USD, BTC || ? || These are generally bearer instruments so the "hardness" would seem to approach a 10 however each exchange that issues a redeemable code may have its own policy. As these are a fairly new tool, it is not known if any exchanges will refuse to honor a code of their own (e.g., customer claims that the code had been stolen).
|-
| Amazon Gift Card || various || ? || 4. Fraud.
Amazon.com will have the right to close customer accounts and bill alternative forms of payment if a fraudulently obtained Amazon.com Gift Card is redeemed and/or used to make purchases on amazon.com or any of its affiliated websites set forth above. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/gc)
|}

=== Virtual Currencies ===
{| style="border: 1px solid #c6c9ff; border-collapse: collapse;" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" border="1"
|- style="text-align: center; background-color: #f0f0ff;"
! Method !! Currencies !! Hardness || Notes
|-
| In-game || SLL || 5 || There may or may not be a dispute process if a user claims a transfer was done against the TOS.
|-
|}

==See Also==

* [[Secure Trading]]
* [[Digital currency]]
* [[:Category:Money transmitters|Money transmitters]]
* [http://stakeventures.com/articles/2012/03/07/the-may-scale-of-money-hardness-and-bitcoin The May Scale of Money Hardness and BitCoin]
* [[Mobile Payment Apps]]

==References==
<references />

[[Category:Financial]]